r/MonsterHunterMeta • u/Traditional_Tune2865 • 2d ago
Wilds Dealing with insane chip damage on Lance?
Basically the title. Really high chip damage wasn't really a thing in World until the final couple monsters if you had a decent build, but in Wilds I'm already coming up against really high chip damage, with max lvl guard, against attacks from monsters like tempered Gore and Zoh Shia. I've been trying to hit more perfect guards and play some evade lance, but I don't play lance so I can dodge attacks or the need to have perfect timing against half the attacks from these monsters. My understanding of Guard Up is that the reduction in damage is only for unblockable attacks so I don't think that would help any either.
Does lance now just require perfect timing in order to keep you from sheathing every couple attacks to heal or am I missing something?
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u/Fresh-Tumbleweed23 2d ago
Divine Protection brother… or sister…… The Divine Protection blesses all, even us Lance users as we Block.
I don’t use Lance too often, but trust me, use the Divine Protection in you Lvl 1 slots.
It even works when I guard with SNS, which is my main.
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u/Poked_salad 2d ago
This is the first time I've tried lance and I'm loving it.
Thank you, thank you for the suggestion.
I've been practicing at the hollow before this patch yesterday with random mmonsters and half the time I've been drinking pots even though I didn't get hit as much when I was playing SnS, CB, or the GS. So that's why my health was disappearing so much lol
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u/ForzaForever 2d ago
Between perfect guards, divine blessing 3, and quick sheathe 3 I rarely die anymore with my lance build. I’m using 2 gore 2 arkveld 1 G ark currently.
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u/elodieandink 1d ago
I’m noticing you haven’t mentioned Guard Counter. Against single hit attacks, it’s pretty much the goto and better than Perfect Guard. If you release at the right time, you get double damage, but if you’re too slow you still block the hit and attack back.
Also, if you don’t want to worry about timing, you’ve also got Power Guard that’s literally a 360-degree “block everything” move.
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u/Traditional_Tune2865 1d ago
Counter thrusting has similar problems to perfect guarding. It's a great tool in Lance's kit and feels awesome, but it's another one of those moves that kinda completely negates the big ass shield lance has. Counter thrust feels like basically just a re-skinned spirit slash. I've also yet to figure out the timing on some of the longer combo attacks that are still going by the time your iframes end, but I'm still trying to work on it.
And power guard will absolutely destroy your health. By the end of Worldborne I was avoiding it when possible, and in Wilds I only use it if I'm caught out of position or to counter roars into grand retribution.
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u/Town_Clown 1d ago
I was having the same issue. I think the problem was sitting there guarding, waiting for a big attack to land. If you find yourself with an awkward amount of time until the big attack hits, try guard dashing into the monster (especially with Zoh’s slams/fireballs and Gore’s big breath attack) because they’ll often end up whiffing. If you have more time, you can do a normal jump and then a guard dash to cover more distance. If you misjudge the guard dash you still block the attack, so it’s a low risk way to potentially avoid those big damage attacks. Just make sure you don’t accidentally guard poke, and don’t use the follow-up shield bash unless you know you’re in the clear.
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u/storage_account69 2d ago
Just perfect guard everything. The timing is extremely generous
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u/Asmo2097 2d ago
Perfect guard is actually bugged at the moment. Against moves with very large knockback it can actually increase chip damage when compared to guarding normally with guard lvl 3.
It gives +20 to your block level, but is not stacking with the guard skill at all.
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u/Ancient-Blacksmith19 1d ago
wait srsly? is that why today when i did a random T arkveld i got knocked back even though i thought i perfect blocked it?
is it bugged with every weapon or just lance?
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u/Asmo2097 1d ago
Another redditor did a more detailed investigation. Here a link to the original post:
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u/Traditional_Tune2865 2d ago edited 2d ago
Imma try the other suggestions first because Lance has never, and should never, required perfect timing minus adept lance in mhgu. The shield is kinda a big part of the weapon, and if perfect guarding is suddenly a hard requirement then kinda sucks ass for the Lance's identity since they decided lance and gunlance weren't the only weapons that should have the most powerful shields and gave it to everything that can perfect guard.
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u/fayt03 2d ago
because Lance has never, and should never, required perfect timing minus adept lance in mhgu
Chip damage has always been an issue with lance, even in World, it's just that we had health augments to heal it back up while attacking. Note that 5-star tempered monsters do significantly more damage than 3-star versions, so the game rewards the use of perfect blocks which i think is fine.
They've leaned on this with Instablock in Risebreak so it's not surprising for Wilds to really push for more timing-based mechanics. It fits with lance's reactive playstyle.
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u/Traditional_Tune2865 2d ago edited 2d ago
I tried a different weapon for base Rise and never got around to Sunbreak so can't speak for it, but in World I didn't really even need to worry about chip damage for the most part until Alatreon and Fatalis - not base game HR content.
And the game doesn't just reward perfect blocks - it's starting to actively punish not using them.
Edit - also not sure all the "jUsT perfect gUarD brO" comments actually bothered reading my post - because I wasn't asking for advice on if I should be perfect guarding. I understand that solves the chip damage issue. I was asking if they made perfect guarding a hard requirement for Lance or if I was missing something, and they more or less did and I wasn't missing anything.
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u/Sigyrr 1d ago
You really should try sunbreak lance, I think it is one of the best iterations in the series history. Though it is pretty dependent on insta/perfect block. Elemental is viable, leaping thrust is great, charged sweep has a great motion value, insta block is fantastic and your counter attack is good and pretty fast, you can chip heal with bloodrite. Also you might really like shield tackle I switched off cause of leaping thrust from element but its pretty great.
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u/Traditional_Tune2865 1d ago
Me and a buddy are planning on going back to Rise and playing through Sunbreak at some point, and when we do I'm definitely going with lance. Maybe by that point the perfect guarding requirement won't bother me as much. It's more the principle rather than the timing though so honestly I'm not sure how much it'll grow on me, but we'll see. It does feel pretty good to pull off during a combo at least lol.
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u/fayt03 2d ago
It's not really a hard requirement, but it's definitely optimal. Since we lack health augments the only way to heal chip damage is to sheathe and chug, which is standard even in base World.
Tbf only apex tier tempered monsters even deal notable chip damage, and we're expected to play at least semi-optimal at that point so i wouldn't consider the game punishing non-perfect blocks
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1d ago edited 1d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/fayt03 1d ago
Your definition of 'hard requirement' is skewed. You can forget perfect blocks, build for defense with divine blessing or w/e and just turtle with the regular guard. It's just gonna be sub-optimal. The game isn't punishing you for not using perfect blocks just as it's not punishing GS players for not using offsets.
If you were a lance main in World then you know the basics of counter thrusting on reaction against incoming attacks. It's literally the same with perfect blocks because the timing is very lenient.
And yes, i admit i'm giving unsolicited advice but hey, i thought it was a better option than saying "no, get good with perfect blocks or pick a new weapon."
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u/Traditional_Tune2865 1d ago
Your definition of 'hard requirement' is skewed. You can forget perfect blocks, build for defense with divine blessing or w/e and just turtle with the regular guard. It's just gonna be sub-optimal.
You're totally right, hard requirement wasn't the best way to put it. It does kinda feel that way though tbh.
In World if I wanted to play sub-optimal I could max out guard related skills and until very late in Iceborne the chip damage wasn't that noticeable the majority of the time (and when it was Safi armor came in handy - I definitely need to try a few health gain armor sets). I never needed to even consider Divine Blessing or rely on its rng. In Wilds I can max out guard related skills, and some attack combos still chunk away 3/4ths of my health bar to chip damage in like 2 seconds, all while I'm not spending those precious weapon gem slots on more optimal skills. That's not even sub-optimal at that point - it's just bad.
And yeah, unsolicited advice is better than the couple other people that completely missed the assignment - you're totally right, that's my bad. But what you said there at the end is kinda my point and what one other user basically said - in order to play Lance more or less functionally perfect guards are indeed going to be required. Other skills either aren't cutting it (Guard, Guard Up) or aren't reliable (Divine Blessing) - so why even bother with Lance when several other weapons also get access to one of its most powerful tools? I love the weapon so that's why - but it really sucks seeing my health evaporate because I wanted to actually use the shield.
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u/Lahk74 1d ago
They were trying to be helpful and you had the option to just ignore their comment. But you chose to be a rude asshole instead. Nice.
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u/Traditional_Tune2865 1d ago
Nah man tons of people have been helpful, but a handful have given less than useless advice of "LuL juSt pErfEcT bLoCk nO cHiP" because they apparently couldn't be bothered to actually read my post. Imo that's rude, but you can be upset over my attitude all you want.
Oh and btw you had the option to just ignore my comment, but you chose to be rude insulting asshole. Nice.
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u/syd_fishes 1d ago
It's kinda blowing my mind that someone would have a problem using what is one of the best new mechanics in the game on the most fitting weapon for it. Blocking is super strong, the trade off is you need to time it. Others have mentioned the guard counter which is similar. Both require timing and seem to be the new identity for lance, which I personally think is good. I would maybe just switch weapons if it bothers you that much.
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u/Skelefellah Light Bowgun 1d ago edited 1d ago
They're trying to express a playstyle difference.
Traditional Guard (holding R2 to just absorb the attack) is actually worse than it has ever been. It has been redesigned to take more chip damage than it has in the past.
Guard sets in prior gens could just hold R2 to be largely invincible against most attacks in the game. Now most attacks will chip you at least a little bit.
You are right that shield weapons now have new options in Perfect Guard (and Charge Counter on Lance), and that those tools are extremely strong.
But those tools play differently than traditional Guard. You have to time them. And whiffing with them can kill you (e.g. Releasing Charge Counter at the wrong time conveys no iframes at all, you'll just eat the incoming attack).
Classic Guard on the other hand can just hold R2 any time you're not sure if you're about to take a hit. Frankly it's a lot easier to play. And for people that enjoy tank fantasies, it can feel really empowering to have that level of invincibility available on demand.
So OP is asking if there's anything they can do to prop up a classic Guard playstyle and offset its new opportunity costs.
"Use Perfect Guard / Charge Counter" is, yes, what the new game design does emphasize, and is the most efficient answer to incoming damage now. But it also doesn't really answer OP's question.
They asked for best ways to bake a pie, and a lot of the replies say to just make a cake.
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u/Traditional_Tune2865 1d ago
If anyone else has such great pointers like "I didn't read the thread so here's this thing you can do- the thing you're specifically asking about not using" maybe just keep your headass advice to yourself, thanks.
There ya go, since you seemed to have missed it the first time.
Kinda blowing my mind some people in the community are this tone deaf.
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u/Skelefellah Light Bowgun 1d ago
OP, I would just like to say that I completely understand and agree with what you're saying.
I'm a fan of the nigh-invincibility you could get out of simply holding R2 on a Guard set in prior gens.
You absolutely do take more chip damage on Guards in this game than you did in prior gens. Yes, it is a shift in design philosophy to incentivize you to use timing-based defenses instead.
And yes, that does erode the identity of Lance and Gunlance shields. You can in some cases guard more safely now on SnS by fanning Guard Slash than you can on the two weapons that have classically had the best shield stats in the game.
On Lance, I have taken to using Power Guard a lot. It still eats up chip damage, but it's a lot less conditional than your timing-based reaction options. Also Grand Retribution Thrust (which combos out of Power Guard) is just fuckin cool, so it makes me feel less salty.
And on top of that, build the Arkveld, G Arkveld, and/or Zoh Shia sets to put some passive healing into your set. They're too slow to be your only healing option if you're getting chunked, but they will easily heal off little chip damage and keep you topped off against health attrition.
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u/Traditional_Tune2865 1d ago
Thank you! You put it better than I could have. I was starting to get a little salty with the "just perfect guard" replies I've seen in this thread - that's not my point.
And yeah our new moves do help to at least keep the weapon fun. Of you haven't tried it yet I highly recommend to try follow up charging after grand retribution thrust (it's a really good followup and it just feels fuckin awesome).
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u/Skelefellah Light Bowgun 1d ago
I love the combo into full charged Dash and use it every time I can get away with it 😄 Fine tastes, my friend!
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u/BandOfSkullz 2d ago
As others have already offered solutions to your problem, I'd just like to answer your question whether this is the way Lance has to be played now.
Yes it is, and it genuinely annoyed me enough to stop playing Lance. I loved being the anchor for my team with an unkillable shield. Heck I was excited when we knew that a taunt skill was gonna be here. But it's so sad that they completely took everything that used to be the Lance play style and went to make it more of a heavy sword and shield type of thing.
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u/Traditional_Tune2865 2d ago
Yeah I'm not sure if some of the people just telling me just to perfect guard actually understood what I was asking or why I wouldn't want to be forced into perfect guarding.
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u/Tenko-of-Mori 1d ago
what's your defense? I'm wondering if there's something wrong there because I've solo'd Zho Shia a couple of times and really been completely turtle tanking everything with 0 problem, and the chip damage is negligible. I am using palico though, so it helps. I'm also on DEF 4 in decos, but I'm not sure if the 30 or defense from that is what's making all the difference. Also guard up 3 of course
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u/Traditional_Tune2865 1d ago edited 1d ago
I'll have to check but it's around 400 - it seems to work fine, until I lose the majority of my health to a combo. My fire res was down and I only slotted Guard Up 1 (not sure which attacks it helps for though there aren't many unblockables) so that wasn't helping with Zoh.
Edit - 375 defense
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u/Dashisaru 1d ago
If you are talking about his big fire attack, none of the guarding skills help. I've noticed once it starts spreading on the ground, it stops being a monster attack and becomes an environmental hazard. That's why you your life drops like hell. Fatalis' breath attack is a similar mechanic. That's why the Uragan lance combo doesn't tank it.
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u/Traditional_Tune2865 1d ago
I know the attacks you're talking about where the floor is like lava for a few seconds, but I'm mostly getting chucked by the actual attacks.
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u/Dashisaru 1d ago
I run a mix of guard and guard + on my pokers and at least divine protection 3. The guard skills can be changed out, but Divine Protect is helps alot
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u/Better_Strike6109 22h ago
Use 4 piece Zho-Shia or 4 pieces Arkvulcan sets for life recovery. They're both stacked with good skills, deco slots and base defence.
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u/AttackBacon 2d ago
Your resistances and defense still have a big effect on how much chip you take. Most of the meta sets have really low/negative fire resist, so Zoh Shia is going to fuck you up pretty good even through your guard.
Upgrading your armor to max, eating for elemental resist, getting some Divine Blessing/Felyne Defender in there, slotting in Fire Res, etc. All that will help a good bit. There's also three healing set bonuses in the game now (Ark/G.Ark/Zoh), those can help mitigate chip a lot.
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u/DBlockIT37 Lance 2d ago
As others have mentioned, perfect guarding on Lance is extremely forgiving, easy to use after any move. In addition, the charged counter uses iframes instead of being a block, when timed properly, so you will take zero damage when you are successful.
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u/bestsmnNA Lance 1d ago
If your guard skill is maxed then it definitely sounds like a defense issue to me. I pretty much never try for perfect blocks and I don't find chip damage to be much of a problem. Are you using HR equipment and upgrading it? Some of the most common set pieces (Gore, Arkveld, and now Zoh Shia) all come with nice high base defense, and anything from lower/purple tiers can be upgraded to give more defense too. It makes a big difference!
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u/Traditional_Tune2865 1d ago
Are you using HR equipment
Lmfao yeah, I'm using upgraded rarity 8 HR armor. No offense but if that's what you think the issue is you might should keep your advice to yourself lol
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u/titan_null 1d ago
If you play bad you get bad results. There are now 3 set bonuses for health regen + the mending mantle to recover chip damage. The timing on perfect guard is insanely generous.
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u/Traditional_Tune2865 1d ago
If anyone else has such great pointers like "I didn't read the thread so here's this thing you can do- the thing you're specifically asking about not using" maybe just keep your headass advice to yourself, thanks.
Tell me you have the reading comprehension skills of a rat without telling me you have the reading comprehension skills of a rat.
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u/Alius_Facade 2d ago
Guard up is ALL damage not just unblockable. It enables you to block the normally unblockable attacks. Im not fully sure it allows you to block everything but from what Ive seen on some of the subs it does.
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u/Dezere 2d ago
Unless Wilds is different from Rise and IB, this is just not the case, Guard up has traditionally only reduced damage from the unblockable hits that are enabled with Guard up and nothing seemed to change here as far as i'm aware
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u/Skelefellah Light Bowgun 2d ago
I think you're correct. I think the tooltip is just very confusing for people who are coming straight to this game from World.
Basically Guard Up confers less DR against unblockables in Risebreak/Wilds than it did in World. It was a deliberate nerf in Risebreak, because Guard sets in World were pretty busted. That's what the percentages in the tooltip are trying (poorly) to explain.
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u/aromaticity Lance 2d ago
It's also not reduced damage, at least compared to normal guards. It's increased damage.
Normally you take 0/10/20% chip damage at s/m/l knockback. With Guard Up 3 all unblockables deal 20% chip regardless of knockback.
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u/PassakornKarn 2d ago
It does allow you to block everything but seems to not negate all chip damage.
I tried lvl 3 Guard AND lvl 3 Guard Up but still takes chip damage. Even with the super guard move, I’m always barely alive from full health blocking Zoh Shia 5 fireballs move.
I was able to block the one-shot lightning move with minimal chip damage though.
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u/VisibleDraw 2d ago
The fireball combo is pretty easy to perfect guard. If you block one, you don't even need to time the others because the window for perfect guarding is very generous. Just drop shield the second one hits and put it right back up, and you're golden. You do get fireblighted through the shield sometimes, though.
I'm not sure how/if Guard Up interacts with perfect guarding unblockable attacks, since I don't use the skill myself, but Zoh's only two unblockable attacks (vertical cone and nova) are telegraphed well enough that you can reposition on reaction.
Additionally, Zoh's fireblight WILL kill you if you're using corrupted mantle, so be wary of that. I'd recommend grabbing a Fire Res talisman if you're still using the mantle, getting fire defense up to 20 should make you immune to fireblight.
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u/Liar83 2d ago
I used guard up until I learned his move set, but IIRC the vertical fire breath attack only does a single blockable hit and the rest is just animation that you can dps through, assuming we're thinking of the same attack. The huge one you can tank but I have no idea about perfect block timings on it, it didn't occur to me to try.
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u/VisibleDraw 2d ago
I've never had any success blocking the vertical fire attack without guard up, though it may have been due to positioning. I find his nova much easier to deal with than Jin Dahaad's, since you can easily create safe spaces with a couple slinger shots. There's also the matter of the huge blind spot right behind Zoh during most of his AoE attacks.
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u/Liar83 2d ago
Sorry, I specified poorly. I meant if using guard up its just a single hit attack that you can block, despite the long fire animation. I'll try to guard counter it next time I'm in position to do so (with no guard up), for science.
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u/VisibleDraw 2d ago
The single hit property is pretty funny for tackling, I'll keep that in mind
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u/Liar83 1d ago
I was wrong, it's two hits, one at the start and one at the end. If standing directly under him I would counter the first and then get hit by the second. I could reliably counter it if I was standing further back towards his tail but still in range of it only getting hit once in that case.
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u/Traditional_Tune2865 2d ago
I'll have to slot in Guard Up and try and couple hunts to see, but when I looked it up to double check before posting this thread and I couldn't find much but I did find several people on reddit and steam claiming Guard Up does nothing for non guard-up attacks (ie attacks you can normally block).
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u/Skelefellah Light Bowgun 1d ago
Guard Up does absolutely nothing against attacks that are normally blockable. It's just a confusing tooltip.
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u/LifeAd5019 2d ago
Well funny you should ask that. Have you seen the new Zho set bonus?